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WARNING : Don't you judge by reading one article. This site is not for you if you cannot see the otherness of others and sufferings of both sides of the party in the conflict. Security for Israel and Justice for the Palestinians are interdependent, one will not happen without the other. My view focuses on building cohesive societies where no one has to live in apprehension or fear of the other. I hope and pray a sense of justice to prevail. Amen. Website www.IsraelPalestineDialogue.com | Also Check Israel Palestine Confederation a pragmatic solution

Saturday, August 2, 2014

Suing Barak Obama by Josef Avesar at Times of Israel

URL - http://israel-palestine-dialogue.blogspot.com/2014/08/suing-barak-obama-by-josef-avesar-at.html

An article by Josef Avesar generated the following conversation, every comment, whether you agree or not, adds towards understanding, and development of empathies and apathies. Josef Avesar is founder of the Israeli Palestinian Confederation, which advocates for a mutual third government for Israelis and Palestinians. An American-Israeli of Iraqi background, he practices law in the U.S. The following comments are made by group members in chronological order with the latest on the top  
www.IsraelPalestineDialogue.com 


Our President, Administration, Senators and Congresspersons have failed us. Instead of getting Israelis and Palestinians to a dialogue we have endorsed and affirmed their behavior to remain (in conflict) and have offered to fund both sides to do more of what they are doing.  None of these guys are genuine friends of Israel or Palestine, if they were, they would get them to the table and demand them to figure out and bring a resolution. We have that right, as we bear the brunt of their actions – our tanks and fighters are killing one side and building schools on the other and as such we have a right to demand parties to have a dialogue.

The current leadership of Israel, Palestine and the United States are not capable of finding solutions and keep passing the buck to yet another  generation. The problem is with the public – all of us are democracies, and we are not demanding performance – we need to demand, "if you cannot bring peace and justice to the people, please resign, we don’t want the conflict to go on for another generation. We are the problem and we need to speak up.

God gives fangs, horns and paws to the animals to resolve their conflicts, and denies the same to humans and instead gives them a tongue –to talk. We need to decide to be humans and dialogue without killing each other.

Mike Ghouse is a speaker, thinker, author, pluralist and an activist committed to building cohesive societies and offers pluralistic solutions on issues of the day. His details are listed in numerous links at www.MikeGhouse.net



I still like Barak Obama and want him to succeed. I voted for him twice, Campaigned and donated money to make sure he was elected. I remember the moment I fell in love with him. It was during the first campaign for president when he gave these wonderful speeches which truly gave me a sense of hope. I felt he was a straight shooter a wise man who tells you things the way they are. I had a sense that he was trying to get to the bottom of issues based on objective analysis without fear of political implications that he would make his decisions based on Science and not on politics that he would inspire our nation to think freshly and boldly.
To my dismay when it comes to the Israeli Palestinian Conflict, Barak Obama chooses stagnation over innovation. He lacks imagination and chooses a photo copy machine to duplicate previous failed policies.
If I could, I would sue him for Presidential Malpractice.  Why? Because he insists on the Two States Solution as the ONLY solution, knowing that it failed before. The first rule one learns in Medical School is “do no harm”. Medical malpractice is usually broadly defined as conduct “below the standard of care”. When a doctor knows that he is about to subject his patient to a procedure which consistently failed and nevertheless does it, he acts below the standard of care and is guilty of malpractice. Mr. Obama is acting below the standard of care and is about to do harm.
Since when does the principle that America is a land of opportunities fulfilled by considering only one option?  Particularly, when that option has failed.  Especially when that option is the ONLY option that failed.  The President ran on the platform of “hope and Change “and “Yes we can “. However, when it comes to the Israeli Palestinian conflict advocating ONE option for peace is like running on the platform of “No hope and no change “ and “No we cannot” .
Every time our leaders sit down with a map dividing the real estate of Israel and Palestine, someone always makes sure that the level of violence and terror will increase so much that any plan of dividing the land will be derailed. They eventually succeed in derailing the negotiations.
The two-state solution is not a peace plan. It is a division-of-real estate plan. It is a divorce plan. It does not enhance cooperation, dialogue and interaction between the peoples of Israel and Palestine. It does not teach tolerance and understanding. It does not encourage cooperation and engagement. It does just the opposite. It enforces a false need to separate the two. It validates and perpetuates a dangerous notion that the Israelis and Palestinians are so different from each other and so diametrically opposed to each other that they cannot live together and must be separated. Instead of encouraging the parties to engage and solve their differences, the two-state solution pretends that once they are separated, all will be well.
If the Palestinians and the Israelis are separated there will be fewer common threads between the two peoples. There will be less dialogue and fewer attempts to establish mutual formulas and mechanisms to resolve issues. The alternative of “solving” issues through war will become more likely. Israelis and Palestinians who want peace will find it even more difficult to connect with each other and will be increasingly isolated in their own societies. The lubricants of peace will diminish. Isolation of the two societies will perpetuate suspicion, stereotyping and animosity.
The two-state solution is a solution between governments, not people. If such a solution becomes a reality, it will enhance the power of the governments and reduce the power of their people to demand peace.
The two-state solution is a mechanical solution. It ignores the historical connection of both peoples to the land and requires the artificial pretense that they now belong to only a portion of that land. It ignores the huge economic connections Israelis and Palestinians have with each other on a day-to-day basis in terms of commerce, roads and utility grids. It ignores the fact that Israelis and Palestinians are interwoven with each other and have families on both sides of the two states. It ignores the reality that the area itself is so tiny that dividing it into two states is  an impossibility.
Toward the last months of his administration, President Clinton made a huge personal commitment and used every means at his disposal to convince the Israelis and Palestinians to reach an agreement through a two-state solution. Despite his intense efforts and personal charm, coupled with the full power and strength of the U.S. government, the negotiations ended in failure. As Dennis Ross wrote in his 2004 book The Missing Peace, President Clinton’s proposal appeared reasonable to any objective observer. It was later disclosed that it was Yasser Arafat who rejected the deal, but it is not completely clear that Barak accepted it nor that the Israeli government and its Parliament would have approved it. Where exactly did President Clinton not try hard enough? What land was forgotten in those negotiations? It became abundantly clear in those negotiations that having those leaders sit together with a map and a pencil dividing towns, streets and mountain ranges does not suffice and may even be counterproductive. If anything, the two-state solution is even less likely now since both the Israelis and the Palestinians are retreating from the end point of those negotiations.

Barak Obama seems to be making the same mistake. He is reducing the conflict to a single dimension, which is the division of real estate. It is astonishing that despite the decreased chances for a two-state solution, he does not pursue other innovative solutions, such as a confederation. Even if Obama decides to exert pressure on the parties, the most he will be able to reach is an agreement. He will not be able to dictate peace. Obama should be advocating peace. Should Obama admit that the previous plans for a two-state solution failed, the U.S status in the region will not suffer but rather, enhanced. Should Obama accept the idea that there are other means to forge peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians, its relationship with them will remain intact and probably even strengthen. Should the U.S. agree to open up the process of peace and refrain from limiting itself to a single solution, it will be viewed as an honest and sincere broker. In the long run, the U.S. will have better relationships within the region if it advocates the notion that peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians can come from them alone.

The two-state solution is an “all or nothing” approach. The premise of this approach is that until the parties agree on the division of land between them, the status quo remains the same. Albert Einstein’s definition of insanity—doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results—is quite fitting in this context.


From the latest comment to the earliest one.
Dear Zahav,

I feel your anguish in the note, and want to assure you that most people see the “evidence” – and I do. Over the years, Hamas has become a terrorist organization, and the intensity of their terrorizing seems beyond repair.

Let’s take a step back and review things;
Each one of us in this group has joined together with Josef Avesar  because of our singular pursuit – for every Israeli and Palestinians to have his or her own space, and ultimately respect each other’s rights and aspirations, with a clear long term goal of security for Israel and Justice for the Palestinians.

Our commitment to our goal is tested every time and every day. The ugly stuff like Hamas rockets and Israel’s revenge will test our commitment, some of us want to give up and entertain the thoughts of annihilating each other, and if that is the case we are fakes, and perhaps more dangerous than the reactions of Hamas and Netanyahu.

Our commitment should open our hearts and minds to see each other as humans, and understand why they act the way they do, be it Hamas or Netanyahu kind.  What leads them to their reaction? A stronger commitment will enlighten us to see Hamas and Netanyahu as humans with a loss of vision,  self control, misguided, short-circuited for their own goals of security for Israel and Justice for the Palestinians. If we understand and empathize with them, we would have a common ground.
We need to get them to talk – and part of the dialogue should be a dozen Israeli and Palestinian Children in their presence, and have them look at the children and see if they are committed to a good future of those children. Either they are villains to the children or heroes in bringing peace and prosperity to them.
I am seriously concerned about this conflict. To me every human is part of the universal family and will stand up for every one’s right, and not ones’ over the other. I urge every one of us, at least the genuine or pretentious peace makers to look to every one as part of humanity on an equal footing.

Thank you

Mike Ghouse



In a message dated 8/2/2014 3:56:31 A.M. Central Daylight Time, xxxxxxx writes:
For me, it is impossible to believe that so many of you disbelieve the evidence of your eyes and see a kinder gentler Hamas.  Look at what they do to their own people.  Look at what they did to their own elected unity government.  In case you missed it, they shot murdered and threw PA officials live off of apartment buildings.  Why do you think they are lying, or to be more kind, exaggerating, when they REPEATEDLY state what their goals are and then act accordingly?  That is like saying the settlers don't really want to live in Ariel they just like the sun there.


On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 11:43 PM, MikeGhouse@aol.com wrote:


The arrogance of a handful of American and Israeli Hawks is destructive.  They have nothing to lose, whereas the average Israelis and Palestinians have everything to lose, including lives.  
Hamas rhetoric to kill every Jew or push them to sea is no different than the rhetoric of Golda Meier, Moshe Dayan and several others who have said similar ugly things about Palestinians. This is the stance every opponent takes to have gains prior to negotiations, and it is downright stupid of the United States and Israelis to take this as gospel.

I have fought with the right wing media including Hannity, that a dialogue with the enemy is a necessity. Peace talks between Netanyahu and Obama is ridiculous; it should be between Hamas and Netanyahu. Just not them two, but in the presence of 5 Palestinian and 5 Israeli families with children from 1-10, and these men need to shake hands with those kids and promise to them that they will make their lives better, if not, they are not worthy of being the leaders and will resign and get the hell out of the way of those who can bring peace.

Unless the moderate Jews and Palestinians demand performance from these men who pride on being macho men, showing off their prowess, these men will continue to wreck the nations.

On November 20, 2007, in reference to the Annapolis Conference, I wrote, “The most important parties to peace making are the ones who are affected and the ones who can make a difference. Mother Teresa said “If you want peace, to talk with your enemies, you don’t make peace with friends”.

I do hope the state department brings people who are willing to speak out, and speak up. If they bring the puppets and make decisions, they won't last longer. They need to bring Hamas into the picture without them in the equation we will not succeed.

All our efforts to place wedges between Abbas and Hamas shows our desperation to do something. We cannot bring peace when still a party to the conflict is not part of the solution. I have spoken against the agenda of Hamas, but if we need peace, a genuine one, they need to be a part of the equation. “


Shame on us Americans, we have not pressed our representatives to push for dialogue, and threaten with holding off funding and support – had we done that, the Hawks would have behaved and peace would have been possible, it is still not too late. Why are we afraid to demand a dialogue, and put an end to the conflict and bring about sustainable security for the Jews and justice to the Palestinians, one will not happen without the other.   

Thank you

mike


In a message dated 8/1/2014 1:29:23 P.M. Central Daylight Time, xxxxxx writes:


There is no doubt about it that Hamas will be involved in a peace process or in a ceasefire process. There is no way to deter from this. The first move is to acknowledge that the occupation did not cease in 2005. Settlers might have been moved and the PR campaign might have won some, but the reality in Gaza is that it is a giant prison camp. There is no justification of killing any innocent civilians on either side, but in reality if anyone is living in dire straights, they will find a way to rectify this issue.....building tunnels and firing rockets is this rectification.  

Hamas is anti-Zionist and anti-occupation, not anti-Jewish and I dare say anti-semitic because technically (everyone there comes from semitic tribes and using this phrase technically says they would be against themselves). 


There has to be a way to bring back peace to the region, but I do believe the only way to achieve this at this point in time would be to dismantle the continued occupation; this is Hamas' main request. This is not about bring pro-Hamas or pro-Zionist, this is about human rights and the right to live freely. 
Jill 



Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 19:08:33 +0300 xxxxx writes,

So many of you make light of the constant rocket attacks.  I am not saying the attack by Israel is not dealing a terrible blow to Gaza civilians.  But I seriously cannot believe my ears (or eyes) when you state that Hamas can be talked to.  They have had plenty of opportunity to move toward peace.  They complain of not having food, but they spend MILLIONS on tunnels and weaponry. 

HAMAS cannot be talked to.  They refuse to give up on the annihilation of the Jews, not Israelis, but Jews.  Do you seriously think they are joking!!!  They are not.  If you think they are just using words, wait.  because one day they will be at your door.  I hope you are not non religious muslim, or shia, or druze, or christian.  You will be DEAD.

Maybe the war would play better if Israelis agreed not to use bomb shelters and Iron Dome.  It would seem fairer.  Especially to UN Pilay.  The least even handed bureaucrat ever.  Ha Human Rights, it is just the Palestine show over and over and over.  Not even a word about Iraq, Syria, Ukraine, Nigeria.  Those are small potatoes compared to Israel.  Single minded anti semitism disguised as world forum.

La plus ca change, la plus c'est la meme chose.
Zahav




On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 6:44 PM, xxxxxxxx wrote:

We have family in Israel . My closest friends are Jewish Arabs Christians Buddhists etc all over the world


Which can be more justified when comparing tunnels to tanks? Terrorists are not inferiors to tanks... From 2005 Gaza it is not an occupied territory... Gaza was free to create a new earth with 250 million Dollars they got from Qatar. They created runnels of death/ There is always in wars people who are in suffering... Innocent civilians to include children should not die,
in both sides

Ouriel



2014-08-01 17:42 GMT+03:00 wrote:

Thank you Mike, Saleem and  Julianne. 

I have family in Ramallah . My closest friends are Jewish here in California 
Which can be more justified when comparing tunnels to tanks? An occupation with resistance is understandable to a degree.  Innocent civilians to include children  should not die.  

Natalie
Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 1, 2014, at 7:13 AM, Mike <mikeghouse@aol.com> wrote:

Don't we all want America to play an honest broker? My position reflects that ideal very closely. Justice is the bottom line and as peacemakers, we should be conflict mitigators and goodwill nurturers, and NOT aggravators. 

Security for Israel and justice for the Palestinians are mutually inclusive and interdependent, one will not happen without the other. 

Neither population should suffer and be punished because of the few bullies on both sides.

Netanyahu ( not Jews or Judaism )
is the actual villain  derailing the long term security of Israel, and our administration is justifying the retaliatory actions of Israel to the detriment of long term security of Israel,  instead of getting them to the table to talk. It's like throwing fuel on the fire. Hamas on the other hand is not expressing it's frustration in an effective way to bring attention to the problem.  

We got to get these men to talk, face to face. 

The  world is frustrated and building resentment towards Israel, which has violated many UN resolutions. Israel is not in good books for the majority of the world and it's not good to survive on military strength alone, goodwill is equally needed.

Netanyahu and his sycophant Gutless Obama are directly responsible for derailing what the Palestinians and Israelis deserve.

There is a whole blog dedicated to the issue with over 80 articles. Go to www.Israelpalestinedialogue.com

I have been to several mosques during Ramadan, thank God, there was no hatred for Jews Israel or Judaism. All of them sought relief to the victims both Palestinians and Israelis and saw Netanyahu as the hurdle for Israel and Palestine solution. 

The cry is where are the moderate Jews? Have Jews jettisoned justice for security? It should have been security thru Justice. No society will achieve peace without justice.

It should always be the majority, the powerful and the bullies who need to hold their horses.

1. Sanity Prayers for American Jews and Muslims on 7/25/2014 http://israel-palestine-dialogue.blogspot.com/2014/07/sanity-prayers-for-american-jews-and.html  and





Thank you,

Mike Ghouse
(214) 325-1916
Author | Speaker | Pluralist 
Washington DC | Dallas TX  





On Aug 1, 2014, at 9:30 AM, Jonatan Zahav wrote:


With all Respect Saleem


Are you defending Hamas or criticizing its actions?  You oversimplify my arguments and then throw disdain on them.  Are Jihadist groups good for the world and in particular the west, or do they desire our death and destruction. 


I NEVER confuse Islam with Jihad.  I live in Israel.  The difference is not clearer anywhere else on earth.  I live among Arabs of all stripes and religions and beliefs.  I live in a mixed city, in the north where the majority are not Jewish.


That does not mean I hate my neighbours.  Some are good some are not so good.  It does not matter if they are Arab, Jew, or anything else.  And the same is true amongst the Palestinians I know.  And by Palestinians, I am referring to those who wish for a state for themselves.  Some of them I know well, and I used to go to their homes and they used to come to my home.  Their children and my children remain friends.


But I don't know any Jihadists.  These people claim they want to eradicate my people from the earth.  They claim it is their religious duty.  I do not call them Muslims.  Because in my city I know many Muslims.  Some of them, as I stated, I consider friends.  So if you consider my knowledge incomplete, please let me know where.


And Julianne, ethnic cleansing.  Of Arabs.  But not an iota about the ethnic cleansing of the Jews who lived in what is currently Gaza and West Bank.  The murder of women and children, the forced expulsion out of their homes.  Jews were completely ethnically cleansed from these areas during the period of 1929 through 1948.  Totally Judenrein.  Not even one left.  But that does not matter to you.  It is a non issue.  And "The Arabs did not react well to the founding of Israel".  The armies of seven states aligned against it with the sole goal of "Throwing the Jews into the Sea."


For the first 50 years of the modern day return to Zion, from 1880 to 1929, there was a great sense of cooperation, and certain friction.  By the end of the 20s the promises of the Europeans to all the parties in the Middle East caused revolt among groups within the Arab world, including the Mufti and his gang in Jerusalem.  The mufti was a jew hater.  He aligned himself with the Nazis.  Yes, I would say the Arabs did not react well. 


It is not as one dimensional as you believe it to be.  There is plenty of blame, plenty of wrong, plenty of immense errors committed by both sides.


Now, it is our choice, and by our I mean Israelis and Palestinians, to decide which direction we want to progress in.  Hamas has made a clear choice.  Prior to the military overthrow of the PA in Gaza, Gaza was doing better economically than even the West Bank.  They had open borders, yes supervised by Europeans, and could import and export peaceful items of any sort.  It was the best that life had ever been in Gaza.  It was so good, that Hamas was forced to murder the PA representatives and officials in Gaza and seize control before a real peace, a real accomodation broke out and sabotaged everything Hamas had worked so hard for.  Armed Jihad.  Holy Jihad.  Death to the Jews from the river to the sea.

Say what you will about the negotiations that were held last year, at least people were talking and getting closer together.  No one got everything, each side was called on to give up some things they feel are their rights.  We did not resolve the issues yet.  The talks moved too slowly.  But no one was injured.

Does this excuse the rockets?  The tit for tat murders.  The tunnels intended to cause horrific murder and kidnappings?  Now we are negotiating with Hamas on their terms.  So they use the only real weapon they have.  The human shield.  The body count.  The rocket attacks.  More people were killed last week in Syria than in Gaza.  More people were killed last week in Iraq than Gaza.  But the world does not care about that. 

You act like Israel's goal is to kill civilians.  If only Hamas would fight apart from the civilians, Israel would prefer that.  But as I said, the body count is Hamas' real weapon.  We have the weaponry to completely devastate Gaza.  To truly commit a genocide.  But that has never been a goal of any Israeli leader.  If Hamas had our weapons, how many Jews would they leave alive? 


And who would care.  No one.  We know that from experience.  So we must stay, and we must survive.  And if attacked,  we must fight,  There was just a 72 hour ceasefire, broken after 2 hours by a Hamas attack on Israeli soldiers.  Maybe, just maybe, you can open your eyes just a little and at least observe what is happening here without letting emotion overrule logic.




On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 9:47 AM, xxxxxxx wrote:
Simplifying jihadi groups as all the same and vilifying Muhammad will get us no where.
Mr. Zahav is playing to the foxnews  version of history and analysis of Islam.
I would suggest some sober reading of authors like John Esposito on Islamic history.
Expansionary tendencies have existed in all religions but to vilify and single out Islam like this is too cliche.
Fight extremism in all religions and focus on humanitarian interfaces.
Regards
Saleem
Sent from my iPhone - apologies for typos!




On 1 Aug 2014, at 2:28 pm, xxxxxx wrote:
Your rational does not justify the current conflict whatsoever.  
Natalie
Sent from my iPhone



On Jul 30, 2014, at 2:43 AM, Jonatan xxxxxxx wrote:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/post_8056_b_5602701.html?fb_action_ids=10152589415734375&fb_action_types=og.likes
Hamas has never offered to disband or to alter its Jihadist goals.  And you need to read carefully the goals of Jihad.  The IS.  The caliphate.  They do not just want to annihilate Jews, they also want to conquer Europe and Americas.  It is all a well know tactic used by Mohammed and many other jihadists.  Promise what is necessary to become stronger and conquer your enemy.  Let the palestinians choose who their leaders are, but then believe what the leaders say.  Today, Abbas is vilified by the Palestinians.  He has sent his family out of Palestine for their own protection.  A touch of reality people.  See what is in front of your faces.





On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:31 AM, xxxxxxx wrote:
The article makes a good point.  Hamas not long ago offered to step aside in favor of a more moderate group.  Had this been encouraged by the Obama administration perhaps the current conflict could have been avoided.




Wednesday, July 30, 2014 02:48 AM,

Thoughtful, truthful, creatively-expressed article!

With how Israel has confiscated land and built settlements on or near West Bank / Palestinian Land, it certainly appears over the years that Israel has had the goal of--and indeed is--"taking" the whole region, killing in the process. 

Is it any wonder Hamas/Palestinians are angry?   They are "too" complicit, actually, in the clutches of a monstrous military funded by the U.S.

The whole region, once totally confiscated, will at first be called "Israel" (in its psychologically-vengeful-against-Nazis victory); then, because there are more Palestinians than Israelis of Jewish heritage, it will be called something like "PalesIrael" or "Israelistine" - or something like it, reflecting a One-State Solution (which Israel actually made through all its years of confiscation and encroachment and violence and breaching of U.N. Resolutions and international law); and then this One-State will have a Confederation reflecting the wishes of the People--a people comprising of Jews, Christians, Muslims, and others, living together at last, in Peace and true democracy--as they once did hundreds of years ago. 

Economic sharing, talents pooled, culture and traditions carried out in Peace. 
The Jewish presence will be strong, but other religions will also flourish.  Underlying is a secular Tolerance...as Los Angeles' Jewish Museum of Tolerance does advocate.... 

And a love from the heart of Judaism becomes apparent.

As it could have been in the beginning of the Zionist Movement.

Absurd, is it not.

This may take another century or two.

The Israeli-Palestinian Confederation was--and always will be--a positive influence contributing to this eventually peaceful outcome...

Thank you Joe,
julieanna
Los Angeles



On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 3:01 PM, Josef Avesar wrote:
Last year I published an article in the Times of Israel criticizing the administration for its lack of imagination and incompetence in handling the Israeli Palestinian conflict. The article was titled “Suing Barak Obama for Israeli Palestinian Malpractice”
The article is worth reading and commenting upon now.
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/suing-barak-obama-for-israeli-palestinian-malpractice/

Read more: Suing Barak Obama for Israeli Palestinian Malpractice | Josef Avesar | Ops & Blogs | The Times of Israel http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/suing-barak-obama-for-israeli-palestinian-malpractice/#ixzz39EoReX7t


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